Poll: Pike Attacks
This poll is closed.
Keep as current book
71.43%
5 71.43%
Return to original version
14.29%
1 14.29%
Other
14.29%
1 14.29%
Total 7 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Pikes, YES, back to Pikes
#1
OK, we are going to try to keep this one simple.

Keep as current:
Pikes - A weapon often favoured by mercenary regiments is the pike. Pikes are very long spears, almost twice as long as a normal spear and longer even than a horseman's lance. They have the following exceptions to Spears:
Pikes fight in four ranks.
Require two hands.
When pike unit is charged in the front they inflict D3 S4 Armour Piercing impact hits per full fighting rank of pike armed models. These hits come before impact hits of charging units and models with Always Strike First Ability. After the chargers make their attacks then the pikemen get their normal attacks.
All of these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting to the pikemen's flank or rear.

Go back to the Original
Pikes: Fight in four ranks; requires two hands. Always strikes first in the initial round of close combat, even striking before enemies that have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or magic, will still strike before pike-armed models. Models armed with pikes receive a +1 Strength bonus in the Close Combat phase of the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks directed against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen’s flank or rear.

Or something different.

I'm think we should keep the current version since there have be very few complaints (well one guy wanted 1 hit per Pike. Big Grin)

Poll for 5 days.
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#2
Well, we know that full fighting rank is a rank consisting of at least 5 models, but it still might be good to clarify that you only need 5 models per rank to gain this bonus (I know many people have asked about this). Also, it should be clarified that it is only the 4 first ranks that gain the impact hits (I know it says they fight in 4 ranks, but rules lawyers would say that only goes for the normal attacks, lets avoid that). There that would be all rules-wise. As for the text, it should say "Pikes use the following rules" instead of "They have the following exceptions to Spears". They have nothing in common with spears! You might as well compare them to a hand weapon!

I believe Horus was the one wanthing 1 hit per pike. Now that's cheesy! Tongue
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#3
The "per fighting rank" as M4 says is about the only grey area, otherwise I like the new version more than the old.

So leave as is but maybe clarify that wording a lil.
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#4
If we're going to go with the current rules, change the Pike of Remas to always strike first. At the moment, you're paying a hefty price of a magic items for something that requires 2 hand and all it does is give killing blow on a 5+ against cavalry models.
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#5
Magic Items will be discussed soon, probably sometime next week.
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#6
The newer rules make the pikes more playable, although the likelihood of actually taking a charge and getting to use the rules would be slim. I prefer them to the older ones as they fit more with how they are supposed to work in history.
One way of wording it would be to say they cause d3 hits per point of rank bonus (plus d3 for the front rank). If you are ranked up more than 5 wide then you would still get the hits if you had lost a man or two until you lost the rank bonus.
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#7
(12-30-2009, 06:31 PM)Mattman Wrote: The newer rules make the pikes more playable, although the likelihood of actually taking a charge and getting to use the rules would be slim. I prefer them to the older ones as they fit more with how they are supposed to work in history.
One way of wording it would be to say they cause d3 hits per point of rank bonus (plus d3 for the front rank). If you are ranked up more than 5 wide then you would still get the hits if you had lost a man or two until you lost the rank bonus.
But you do bring up a good point however. The new Pike rules don't scale with frontage.
If you have a frontage of 6 or 7, you don't get any further benefit even though you have many more men.

I suppose that's why I liked the thing I suggested, where it was old rules, but strength 4 against chargers, armour piercing as well against Cavalry+Monsters due to the momentum of the chargers smacking the pikes.
You get about the same amount of hits on average against a regular frontage (Albeit old-style doesn't get the additional strength 3 attacks afterwards), but if you increase your frontage you have the potential to do more damage before they hit you.

I'm not particularly fussed though. If everyone is happy with the rule, I'll sit back again (I don't dislike the rule, just feel that it doesn't quite sit right).
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#8
You do get A LOT more attacks with a wider frontage, just not more impact hits. Since most people aren't gonna field them 10 wide in either this is very minor "problem". Sweep it under the rug and call it a day Smile
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#9
Was trying to work rank bonus into it, rank bonus +1 x D3 impact hits (rolled seperatly for each rank)?
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#10
(12-30-2009, 07:14 PM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: You do get A LOT more attacks with a wider frontage, just not more impact hits. Since most people aren't gonna field them 10 wide in either this is very minor "problem". Sweep it under the rug and call it a day Smile
I think it's better to take another unit than to get more strength 3 attacks.

The other side of things is, what about enemies who have a smaller frontage.

A lone character stupidly charging out gets to bear the full brutal force of 4D3 strength 4 AP hits. When realistically, only 3 models are in base contact with him.

Just food for thought.
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#11
So all 12 people (3 wide x 4 deep) point their pikes at the one lone person charging at the unit, works for me Big Grin
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#12
Well, a chariot still causes the same amount of hits regardless of how many models it charges, same with giants jump up and down. They just point at the lone guy, how hard can it be?
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#13
Right now it's D3 per rank, I was tempted for D6 per rank but that would be nuts.

I don't think there is a big scaling problem by going from 5 front to 6 front. 7 or more would be a scaling problem but would benefit of not losing ranks as fast. I only run shooters in larger ranks than 6.

The option of larger frontage could be D3 + 1 for every 2 models over 5.
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#14
Yeah, now I think it's getting too complicated if we specifically address wider frontage - and doesn't solve enemies have shorter frontage.

Leave it as is I suppose. I can stand with the fact that there's only one guy, so the Pikemen just get super precise about things.
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#15
The problems I encountered was being charged by trolls, tree kin, and cavalry. Even at S4 AP, they did little if any damage. What about making them S5 AP against cavalry and larger bases, US 2 or greater might be easier to say it.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
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#16
It would have to say US2 or Greater except Swarms.
But wouldn't S5 AP be a little cheesy since it's an Auto (Impact) Hit.

Are you planning on playing any games this weekend Guido? Try it out at S5 and S5 AP.
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#17
They really had trouble with those guys? These reverse impact hits are even better than regular attacks, because fear doesn't affect them.

By the odds, they should be doing about...
6 strength 4 AP hits before combat starts, which should result in about 3-4 wounds before armour saves/regeneration/etc. That should be enough to kill 1 Knight, or a wound or two anyway and swing combat in the Pikemen's favour (combat res of standard, outnumber, 3 ranks and a wound or two). The only things I feel they'd have trouble against are things like Cavalry that have lots of attacks per base (Chaos Knights, Saurus Cavalry come to mind), which Pikemen point for point probably aren't suited to facing head on anyway.

I don't think I'd want to go in the strength 5 realm. Setting down a pike and having someone impale themself with their own momentum doesn't feel like something that should go up that high in strength. It doesn't sit right with me.
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#18
instead of increasing the strength, AP value = to US?
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#19
I agree with Someone here, except against treekin you will only do 2W on average before saves. But then again, pikes are supposed to be good against cavalry (and now infantry too), not monsters, leave that to cannons and ogres and whatnot.
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#20
How would S3 and no saves for the Impact Hits only. Big Grin
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