Dogs of War 4.2 beta out now!
#1
All right, finished the (first) beta version. If there are any more changes needed to be made, this version will be updated before replacing the 4.1 version. I intend to leave it in a beta state for about 1-2 months so people can get a chance to playtest the list using the changes and report feedback on how it fares.
It is of particular interest to know if all choices are considered worth taking at their points costs and army list position in case this needs to be tweaked (mainly Broken Lances vs pikemen, Elves vs rest of rare section, possible war machine spam and so on).

Download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Redi9...sp=sharing

Changes to beta version:
- Racial Distrust replaces Hard to Hire and Distrust
- Pikes buffed against cavalry, nerfed on the offensive
- Military Hammers added (option for Merc Cap and Broken Lances)
- Light crossbow buffed to Strength 4, nerfed to range 16"
- Pit Fighters "Fight to the Death" rule removed.
- Pit Fighters may now take nets, revised weapon options.
- Pit Fighters's Immune to Fear now called "We who are about to Die"
- Halflings "Short and Nimble" rule removed
- Espringals are now called Scorpions
- Leonardo may now use all of his Genius abilities, 135 pts
- Prism of Power one use only
- Broken Lances 8 pts per model for internal balance, shield by default.
- Broken Lances may not take great weapons, have options for morning stars and military hammers instead.
- Merc Ogres may now take heavy armour
- Merc elves 1pt cheaper to retain internal balance
- Hot Pot now ignores armour saves, 75 pts.
- Staff of Sorcery now called Staff of Fickle Fortune
- Golden Armour increased to 30 pts
- Hurcio's Club abilities capped at +3.
- Various small bugs fixed and improved rules clarifications
Reply
#2
Two things I noticed:
I don't get why only the captain can take a military hammer but a general can not. I makes sense when the lord can take something unique but the other way doesn't seem right.

I'm also not entirely sure about letting the broken lances take the morning stars and military hammers for half a point each. the only other models that can take anything for half a point are Skavenslaves, Clanrats, Gnoblars and Goblins. And that I only because they are among the worst infantry individually, so a heavy infantry unit in the core section that can take an upgrade for half a point is not really something I would think I very balanced. I would increase it to at least 1 point per model.
Reply
#3
This is because of 2 reasons: it's not really a "lordly" weapon (more important characters tend to use swords), just like the general do not have access to bucklers. I would have left it out completely for the characters, but then I figured someone would want the option and so on... the second reason is even simpler; there just no more space of the merc generals page to add more options!

Morning stars and military hammers does mean that you'll lose the parry save in combat, which pretty much puts all 3 options on the same level. Would you still consider it being worth taking at 1pt each? I mean, armour for pikemen or crossbowmen is hardly worth it, and that's a definite boost, where here you are just swapping out one advantage for another. I'm not opposed to charging a a full point for each option though, just want to know if people still consider it worth taking.
Reply
#4
Is space issue why duelist champ lost BoP option? I like my BoP on my champ Smile

Also the scorpions, using bolt thrower rules but is it multiple wounds like bolt thrower or 1 wound like older version? And further it says armour piercing but yet RAW for bolt thrower, ignore armour saves. I think that those two things got left out as
Reply
#5
The brace of pistols was omitted because the whole unit can buy weapon options, not just the champion. This makes pricing his equipment properly impossible since he will either pay too much or too little in different situations.

Scorpions fire as bolt throwers, but use the profile given. A normal bolt thrower have the ignore armour saves rule and Multiple wounds, but since those ones are not listed, they do not apply. I've clarified that further now though.
Reply
#6
(10-29-2013, 09:57 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: The brace of pistols was omitted because the whole unit can buy weapon options, not just the champion. This makes pricing his equipment properly impossible since he will either pay too much or too little in different situations.

Scorpions fire as bolt throwers, but use the profile given. A normal bolt thrower have the ignore armour saves rule and Multiple wounds, but since those ones are not listed, they do not apply. I've clarified that further now though.

Boo on the BoP. Empire pistolers champ has his own upgrade option beyond unit choices. Thanks for added that text in bc. fires as a bolt thrower w following profile, as is leads the reader to think ok it's S5, r36. AP yet a BT by rule is D3 Wo, no armour saves. Thanks again. Also in army wide rule grammar issue in distrust. Last sentence "you may never have characters" sb never have more characters.
Reply
#7
(10-29-2013, 01:58 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: This is because of 2 reasons: it's not really a "lordly" weapon (more important characters tend to use swords), just like the general do not have access to bucklers. I would have left it out completely for the characters, but then I figured someone would want the option and so on... the second reason is even simpler; there just no more space of the merc generals page to add more options!

Morning stars and military hammers does mean that you'll lose the parry save in combat, which pretty much puts all 3 options on the same level. Would you still consider it being worth taking at 1pt each? I mean, armour for pikemen or crossbowmen is hardly worth it, and that's a definite boost, where here you are just swapping out one advantage for another. I'm not opposed to charging a a full point for each option though, just want to know if people still consider it worth taking.

While I don't fully agree with it I can buy your reasoning for the lords.
On the second point if you really do think that all three options are of equal worth then you should allow them to take a morning star or military hammer for free. Personally I do think having armor piercing on each attack is better then a parry save, but that is just me and I would pay a point for that. Relooking at morning stars however I don't know if it really is worth it so I would make it free. My original issue was not that it costs points or does not cost points to take these weapons so much as it was that it costs half a point, which I believe should only happen for really weak, high number units. In conclusion I would think that it should cost either 1 point for each or both be free to take.
Reply
#8
1: There is a typo in Leonardos description implying that he can, in fact, just use one of his abilities.

2: His sphere of alchemy - I assume that the center of the template can be placed anywhere within his line of sight, max 6" away? Quick to fire, no long range?

3: Still T4 on Hotpot, not T5? Is that compensated by No Armour save?

4: 4p for Military Hammer (it should be called a Mace, really) for the Hero, isn´t that a bit harsh? On a further note, it should be added that it replaces your hand weapon, otherwise it would be possible to combine - a bit confusing regarding which hits are armour piercing. And if I could dream, I´d like it if knights had it as well (1p, can be used any round except when charging?). It was after all a very common weapon among gendarme style cavalry.

5: I´d not want to pay 1p for Hammer or Morning star. 1/2p is acceptable, but since they are more or less equal, having them for free would be fine too.

6: I like the change to the light crossbow.

7: I will always want a Carrocio. Imagine your paymaster mounted on that, possibly with some blunderbuss wielding bodyguards....
Reply
#9
(10-29-2013, 10:16 AM)EdSteiner Wrote:
(10-29-2013, 09:57 AM)M4cR1II3n Wrote: The brace of pistols was omitted because the whole unit can buy weapon options, not just the champion. This makes pricing his equipment properly impossible since he will either pay too much or too little in different situations.

Scorpions fire as bolt throwers, but use the profile given. A normal bolt thrower have the ignore armour saves rule and Multiple wounds, but since those ones are not listed, they do not apply. I've clarified that further now though.

Boo on the BoP. Empire pistolers champ has his own upgrade option beyond unit choices. Thanks for added that text in bc. fires as a bolt thrower w following profile, as is leads the reader to think ok it's S5, r36. AP yet a BT by rule is D3 Wo, no armour saves. Thanks again. Also in army wide rule grammar issue in distrust. Last sentence "you may never have characters" sb never have more characters.

That's because Empire pistoliers have a brace of pistols by default, and you just upgrade from there. Here you start with just a HW, and then you buy pistols, or add. HW's, for the entire unit. Brace of pistols on the champ would therefore be too cheap if the unit doesn't take any weapon upgrades, and too expensive if they do take a weapon upgrade, since he would still have to pay for the same equipment as the rest of his unit, even if he buys a different upgrade later.

(10-29-2013, 04:15 PM)Akbar Wrote: 1: There is a typo in Leonardos description implying that he can, in fact, just use one of his abilities.

2: His sphere of alchemy - I assume that the center of the template can be placed anywhere within his line of sight, max 6" away? Quick to fire, no long range?

3: Still T4 on Hotpot, not T5? Is that compensated by No Armour save?

4: 4p for Military Hammer (it should be called a Mace, really) for the Hero, isn´t that a bit harsh? On a further note, it should be added that it replaces your hand weapon, otherwise it would be possible to combine - a bit confusing regarding which hits are armour piercing. And if I could dream, I´d like it if knights had it as well (1p, can be used any round except when charging?). It was after all a very common weapon among gendarme style cavalry.

5: I´d not want to pay 1p for Hammer or Morning star. 1/2p is acceptable, but since they are more or less equal, having them for free would be fine too.

6: I like the change to the light crossbow.

7: I will always want a Carrocio. Imagine your paymaster mounted on that, possibly with some blunderbuss wielding bodyguards....

1. Have reworded it to: "Before the battle you may set Leonardo's formidable intellect to each of the following problems" if that was the sentence you meant.

2. Added a profile for it.

3. Forgot to update that one! It's supposed to be T5.

4. Military hammer at the top, mace below: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20...untAxe.png
AP will cost him quite a bit more to take a Biting Blade. You cannot combine it with a hand weapon, since only hand weapons have that rule, it's in the BRB. A hammer cannot be combined more than a morning star can. I've add military hammers to freelancers, but they have to choose between the two; a lance otherwise uses a hand weapon in the following turns. It also makes it less of a no-brainer.

5. Better make it free then, since they each are about on par for different roles.

6. Good, I wanted it to stand out more from the normal bow, so I modified it using the mordheim rules with added range.

7. Doesn't really fit with him protecting the paychest though, it feels rather at odds with the whole religious thing. What exactly are the mercenaries fighting for? I wouldn't have an issue with including blunderbusses though, could replace the ogre pistols with it and just gives maneaters normal pistols instead.
Reply
#10
4. Military hammer at the top, mace below: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20...untAxe.png
AP will cost him quite a bit more to take a Biting Blade. You cannot combine it with a hand weapon, since only hand weapons have that rule, it's in the BRB. A hammer cannot be combined more than a morning star can. I've add military hammers to freelancers, but they have to choose between the two; a lance otherwise uses a hand weapon in the following turns. It also makes it less of a no-brainer.


I am aware of the difference between a warhammer and a mace, but they are used pretty much in the same way, and I really did not like the name "Military hammer".
My mistake on the weapon combo.
Would not be much of a choice between lance and hammer; lance is much, much better. S3 AP on the charge is hardly worth it, and cavalry is not supposed to get charged. Only if there is a big difference in points... Since the lance comes from start, maybe add 1p for replacing handweapon with hammer?

7. Doesn't really fit with him protecting the paychest though, it feels rather at odds with the whole religious thing. What exactly are the mercenaries fighting for? I wouldn't have an issue with including blunderbusses though, could replace the ogre pistols with it and just gives maneaters normal pistols instead.

Money. Look how much money is that cart. Better fight hard to protect it. I am aware of the likeness with the War Altar, but hey, who copied who here? More wagons to Tileans.
What are the proposed rules for Blunderbusses?
Reply
#11
Then technically it should just be a hand weapon then (many would surely argue that regardless). Having it replace hand weapons sounds fine. As for the name, that's what they are called in WFRP. Should I just rename them "warhammers" then?

We already have the paychest and the paycart. Sticking your average paymaster on a carroccio filled with money doesn't really make any sense when the most famous paymaster of them all (Mydas) has to contend with a simple cart for his chest.

Blunderbuss rules:

Range: Strength: Special Rules:
12" 3 Multiple Shots (D3),
Armour Piercing,
Move or Fire

Blunderbusses do not suffer any penalties To Hit for firing Multiple Shots or for firing at a charging enemy.
Reply
#12
Wouldn't adding a Blunderbuss be venturing into Chaos Dwarf unique items realm?
To alcohol the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
Reply
#13
Then technically it should just be a hand weapon then (many would surely argue that regardless). Having it replace hand weapons sounds fine.

It would be a cool thing to charge with a lance and dish out a hammer in the next round. Then, technically, it should be the same way for heroes, which would justify the price. Granted, it is slightly cheaper than a biting blade and a bit wierd to have two special weapon (lance and hammer), but it's not magical and armies often have some things a little thing or two that makes them stand out. And maybe a Paymaster should be able to have it as well.
Reply
#14
(10-30-2013, 08:56 AM)tarastop Wrote: Wouldn't adding a Blunderbuss be venturing into Chaos Dwarf unique items realm?

No, as the old Empire War Wagon use to have a Blunderbuss guy along with several other cool toys.
Reply
#15
(10-30-2013, 08:56 AM)tarastop Wrote: Wouldn't adding a Blunderbuss be venturing into Chaos Dwarf unique items realm?

Like EdSteiner said, the Empire used to have them, the Dogs of War artwork shows them having it, there are rules for them in mordheim and so on. Chaos Dwarfs' patent only covers Hailshot Blunderbusses, not generic ones Wink

(10-30-2013, 10:41 AM)Akbar Wrote: Then technically it should just be a hand weapon then (many would surely argue that regardless). Having it replace hand weapons sounds fine.

It would be a cool thing to charge with a lance and dish out a hammer in the next round. Then, technically, it should be the same way for heroes, which would justify the price. Granted, it is slightly cheaper than a biting blade and a bit wierd to have two special weapon (lance and hammer), but it's not magical and armies often have some things a little thing or two that makes them stand out. And maybe a Paymaster should be able to have it as well.

For heroes, this won't be the case though as you can only buy one close combat weapon (source: pretty much every 8th ed army book). They can still be pretty useful against heavy infantry in prolonged combats. I could add it to the paymaster though, sure.
Reply
#16
Drop musician and standard bearer on duelists. Skink skirmishes only get champion.

Typo n last sentence on distrust rule. See my post from above, might have missed it I talked about a lot of stuff up there.

Warhammer vs. military hammer, I like mil hammer

Best money can buy in Merc prince. You say for each model w this rule, yet you can only have 1 Merc prince in army. I would go as far to say that even a special char who is a Merc prince, Borgio for example would mean you cannot take a generic Merc. Prince, unless I am mistaken.
Reply
#17
That's the way I had it in the alpha version, but then ofc people complained about them using musicians... seeing as Empire huntsmen and dark elves shades have option for full command and duellists have the option in the official rules, It's probably better to allow them the option at least.

I have fixed the grammar issue.

I think I might go with warhammer though, that's the most common terms for them after all.

Will reword the rule.
Reply
#18
In the buckler rule it now states that they cannot be used with pistols but only with extra hand weapon. Pistols count as extra hand weapons in HTH. Just curious why it was changed.

I always run my duelists with pistols and bucklers. They are always led by the musician.

Characters can not change weapons mid combat. Buy what you want but you are not allowed to switch mid-fight -- BRB.
To alcohol the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
Reply
#19
(10-31-2013, 08:04 AM)tarastop Wrote: In the buckler rule it now states that they cannot be used with pistols but only with extra hand weapon. Pistols count as extra hand weapons in HTH. Just curious why it was changed.

I always run my duelists with pistols and bucklers. They are always led by the musician.

This is because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be fighting with a pistol in one hand and a buckler in the other. To use a buckler, you need a sword in your free hand, which acts as your main weapon, whereas a pistol is a secondary weapon that doesn't exactly lean itself towards parrying. It also makes pistols less of a no-brainer choice, making you choose between close combat defense or missile attacks.
Reply
#20
Ok. So back to running them the old way. Pistol is still a no-brainer.
I think that this is one of the best core units in the game.
To alcohol the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Dogs of War 4.2 and RoR out now! M4cR1II3n 9 12,403 09-23-2017, 07:59 AM
Last Post: Tertius
  RoR (beta) update out now! M4cR1II3n 38 30,660 01-20-2014, 01:03 PM
Last Post: tarastop
  Warhammer: Dogs of War 4.2 (alpha) out now! M4cR1II3n 75 76,138 10-29-2013, 05:28 AM
Last Post: M4cR1II3n
  Warhammer - Dogs of War 4.1 out now! M4cR1II3n 30 27,684 03-04-2013, 05:38 AM
Last Post: M4cR1II3n
  Warhamer Armies: Dogs of War version 4.0 out now! M4cR1II3n 210 183,741 02-06-2013, 02:49 AM
Last Post: Aldhick
  Dogs of War Play Test Version 3 BilboBaggins 12 12,473 06-06-2010, 06:36 PM
Last Post: someone2040
  Dogs of War Army Book Looking for Artists BilboBaggins 10 8,399 05-12-2010, 07:33 PM
Last Post: M4cR1II3n
  Warhammer Armies: Dogs of War Submissions Slick 100 83,962 04-11-2010, 05:54 AM
Last Post: M4cR1II3n
Lightbulb The Independent Dogs of War Armybook Issue iatroblast 5 6,390 01-02-2010, 08:45 PM
Last Post: BilboBaggins
  Dogs of War Army Book Looking for Volunteers BilboBaggins 2 3,533 12-18-2009, 11:35 PM
Last Post: BilboBaggins

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)