Tomorrow, my Estalian army will once again try to defeat the Tomb Kings in a massive, 2500-point show down. Problem is, they have wiped me out in short order all three previous times that I have faced them. The worst offender is the Casket of Souls, which can melt lone wizards and mercenary Captains with shocking impunity.... but strength 6 Ushabti and fear-causing, deep striking, assault you immediately Scorpions are just as bad.
I would apprecieate any advice you might have before my men ride to either death or glory. I will present my list below, but can only assume that I will be facing 3 Scorpions, the Casket of Souls, 3 or 4 chariots (inflicting D3 impact hits each!), some tomb guard, the eveil Queen special character, and a crap load of skeletons firing poinsoned arrows.
From Estalia comes:
Mercenary Captain (barded horse, sword of might, mag shield, hev armor)
Paymaster (hev armour, talisman, x2 hand weps)
Mage (4th level, horse, 2 scrolls)
Asarnil
The Lost Legion (7 xbows, 14 pikes)
Pikemen (23 men, hev armour, command trio) -- hang w/ the Paymaster
Fast Cavalry (8 men, sheilds)
Hev Cavalry (7 men, shields, lances, champ, standard) hang w/ the Captain
Hev Cavalry (14 men, shields, lances)
Duellists (9 men, pistols)
Dwarves (10 men, champ, banner) x2 - these guys guard the cannon flanks
Cannon
Regardless, I'll let you know how it goes.
Kill the Hierophant.
The few times I've played against the Tomb Kings I was playing Empire and each time I lucked out and killed the hierophant on my turn one with my Great Cannon. The one hiding behind the Catapult was a real lucky bounce, overshot the catapult by an inch and the 10 inch bounce hit the hiding hierophant, I would have preferred to take out both.
Wow. You are in for a rough time. I retired my Tomb Kings after sweeping a for the third year in a row. You are in for an uphill battle with your list, Dogs of War are a poor match up for Tomb Kings and you really need to go magic heavy to compete. But in doing so you lose the high leadership and fighting of your general. Asarnil is a good choice normally, but he can't cause terror against troops immune to psychology, nor can he break a unit that takes casualties instead of breaking. He will get bogged down, and the Tomb Kings will raise his dead to keep you stuck in combat. Bilbo has the best advice. Kill the heirophant (easier said than done) and watch his army crumble.
Yeah, I was going to pint out that Asarnil isn't a good match up here. Especially if the enemy is taking Khalida for poisoned arrows. Poison is one of the best ways to get rid of large targets due to ignoring their toughness (Still has to go through armour). Terror doesn't help out.
I suppose he could go straight for the Casket, but there are better things for that I reckon.
Also, with all the Heavy Cavalry, I'm surprised you haven't taken Volands Venators. Leadership being an issue, he's a captain that doesn't take up a slot, which you could use for a Wizard for a bit more magic power.
Other than that, can't really help out. In the few games I've played, I haven't met up against Tomb Kings. And I haven't played yet with my Dogs of War. But would be interested in knowing what works, since one of my mates is collecting TK's now.
It's true that Asarnil won't cause terror in this particular case... but he's about the only thing the men of Estalia have that can move 20" at a time and still have a hope in hell of living.
See, I am well aware that if can kill the Heirophant and the Priests that I'll be more than halfway home. The difficulty is in actually getting there. Pikes on the forward march? They eat arrows and magic spells until there are too few survivors to actually attack. Units of 8 heavy cavalry likewise are stopped by chariots that tend to hit first, and cause so many armour save rolls that inevitably the unit falls back and is wiped out.
Thus, I am hoping that the renegade Dragon Lord can quickly fly over all those ranks of defending skeletons, take out one or two critical targets (like the Casket, a Screaming Skull catapult, or important character), and then call it a day, job well done, while everyone else mops up.
That's the hope, at least...
Asarnil is still an awesome hunter, so I'd keep him.
However, instead of the Captain, I'd take a Truthsayer. If you're keeping the Captain, put him on a Peg. And take the full 4 dispels on that your Wizard Lord so you can slow down his Magic phase!
Because you know there will be Chariots, the Cannon isn't a bad choice at all, but I'd still suggest the Truthsayer.
I think both Pikemen are really terrible choices. The Heavy Pikemen are inexcusable, as they will auto-Break to Fear. If you're taking any Pike, you should be taking Leopard Company here. Failing that, Ricco is a mediocre choice. The others might as well not bother to be taken.
The Heavy Cav is good, but just take Voland - he can replace mounted Captain.
The ranked Cav, I'd split into 2 units. If you don't win on the charge, +1 CR from the 2nd Rank won't matter. Actually, steal a guy from the other unit so it's 6 Volands backed by 3 units of 5 naked Heavy Cav.
The Dwarves should brick up and protect the Paymaster. Protecting a 90-pt Cannon isn't a big deal. Providing a wall of Stubborn T4 Sv3+ with max static CR is way better.
If you have / can find points, take some Maneaters or Norse.
(12-21-2009 12:03 AM)JohnHwangDW Wrote: [ -> ]The Heavy Pikemen are inexcusable, as they will auto-Break to Fear.
Perhaps, but even if they do, the inspiring presence of the Paymaster's keys will give them a re-roll.
A re-roll to get the double ones needed to stay, still not a great option.
Although shots randomized against the casket are discounted, firing at it is still an effective strategy, as the mage who is required to make the unit function has no ward save and mediocre toughness (unlike the Anvil of Doom...). A unit of crossbowmen, supported by the general's leadership (should be 9, average roll on 2D6+2) can make an impact quickly. Also remember that it requires line of sight, and in my experience, the often means being placed on a hill, which will allow more than a single rank of you troops to fire back at it. It sounds kind of wonky, but a unit of 20 crossbowmen is only 160pts, and for what they can accomplish here, I consider them a great option.
Other than that, Tomb Scorpions aren't big enough to break ranks, and, i believe, only come in with a WS of 4, meaning they are wasted on fully ranked, WS 4 infantry (Ricco's pikes, for instance, or Paymaster Guard). Just make sure to manuever your characters around carefully within your units after he has placed his markers, so he can't go Killing Blow hunting on your general or paymaster. I have found that just marching a unit of Pikes onto a Tomb Scorpion marker and waiting for it to come up works magnificently, as if it hits (and you are on it correctly), he will come up, take 16 hit on 4+, wound on 5+ attacks that give him a 6+ save, meaning he loses about 2 of his starting wounds. After that, even if every hit is a kill for him, static combat resolution should just finish him off.
Lastly, as for the Tomb Guard and Khalita, as i assume she will be deployed there, Do your best to just avoid it, as it is only M4, and even with a free reform banner and magic movement and charges, without the multi-casting of the VC's you should be able to make her about useless.
Oh, and Poison upgraded Skeleton bowmen are just more points for Knights.
Tomb Kings are neat, but they have never been a very competetive force. Not like the Dogs of war
Well... it was a fun game, but in the end I lost. Still, it was not the total roll-over that the men of Estalia have suffered previously.
Firstly, for those of you who doubted and nay-sayed, the Paymaster/heavy armour pike bloc killed an entire unit of chariots (flank charge), then went on to kill all the tomb guard and Queen Kahlida... who is evidently cursed, so the Paymaster chopped her head off, and then mysteriously died himself. Yes, that pike unit succeeded where Asarnil and Deathfanag failed. So
Speaking of Asarnil, it was the first time I had ever used him, and I felt he was cheated in going up against an army that won't break. He flew, and burned, and burned some more. He even took several swipes at the Queen... but despite all the carnage, the enemy wouldn't flee. However, had I been going up against a different foe, I believe that things would have been much different. When 9 of your men explode into flame, the odds are that the rest of them will decide it's just not worth it and will fly the field.
In what will be remembered as the one of the biggest failed gambles of all time, I actually lost a 14-man strong unit of heavy cavalry... voluntarily... in turn 1.
Here's the quick situation: Tomb Kings light chariots are charging the Knights, but the heavy pike unit is nearby and could easily swing into a flank charge (thereby avoiding all those nasty impact hits that go first). So, as a charge response, the Knights flee - making the chariots fail their move, and leaving them open to the pikes. All of this, of course, was dependant on the Heavy Cav regrouping half a turn later, and still being fresh for the fight. Well, the pikes charged the chariots, and the Knights, perhaps figuring their job was done, just kept on going. Yes, they left the table without having taken so much as a wound.
Heartbreaking.
Other highlights included a Pikeman Champion taking a challenge on behalf of the Paymaster, facing off alone against Queen Khalida ... and actually surviving for a turn! He died the following round, but still, for a single wound model clad in only heavy armour, he did very well, and will have songs sung of his courage and sacrifice.
Five duellists with no armour actually stood toe-to-toe with three Ushabti, and held them off for two turns before dying.
The Lost Legion didn't take a single casuality -- but still managed to drop a bone giant using nothing but their xbows. The final killing shot came from Pirazzo himself, proving once again that he is 'da Man.
In the battle of Dwarves against Tomb Scorpion, the winner was: Dwarves!
Oh, and if you want to avoid being splattered by the Casket of Souls, just don't look at it. Seriously. Line of sight is drawn
to the Casket, not from it. So, if a unit is turned so that it is unable to see the thing out of its 45-degree arc of sight... it can't melt their faces off.
All told, the Dogs made a decent show of it I thought, especially considering that most of the battle took place without its unit-strength-28 centerpiece, and with an average leadership of only 8 against a foe that causes fear and terror everywhere one turns.
Nice to hear! Go pikes!
Even though you lost...
Good job, man. I usually set my heavy cav facing my table edge and run them off myself. Just to save time.
Shame you lost. I often play against Tomb Kings with my dwarfs which is a difficult problem since dwarfs lack mobility and are often hard pressed to take out the hierophant.
Glad you had fun - that's the point!
(12-20-2009 06:42 PM)Braden Campbell Wrote: [ -> ]From Estalia comes:
Mercenary Captain (barded horse, sword of might, mag shield, hev armor)
Paymaster (hev armour, talisman, x2 hand weps)
Mage (4th level, horse, 2 scrolls)
Asarnil
The Lost Legion (7 xbows, 14 pikes)
Pikemen (23 men, hev armour, command trio) -- hang w/ the Paymaster
Fast Cavalry (8 men, sheilds)
Hev Cavalry (7 men, shields, lances, champ, standard) hang w/ the Captain
Hev Cavalry (14 men, shields, lances)
Duellists (9 men, pistols)
Dwarves (10 men, champ, banner) x2 - these guys guard the cannon flanks
Cannon
Regardless, I'll let you know how it goes.
replace the Captain by a wizard lord, dump the dwarfs (slow), replace the Pirazzo's by normal pikemen or by ricco's or the immune to psycho pikemen. Hvy cav unit's 10 max, 3x6 is better, try to take voland's in.
Don't put the paymaster in a unit (during deployment). out line of sight or in a immune to panic unit (skull catapult) it can make the paymaster with his unit panic of the table in turn one (yep it happened to me) The man can join a unit in turn 2. that's soon enough becoming a target.
get as much as unit as possible on the 12 inch mark during deployment.
And then.... advance!!!! Race to the other side.
No shoot out, no other strange thingies, attack and do that what youre troops do better... fighting! There is no other way to beat Tomb Kings. I fought them several times and my average is plus on the win on my side. Calculate the battles, out front, and block his magic down on the right times. (eating a magic missile is better then eating a casket.)
commit him to fighting and destroy units... these cannot be reraised.
good luck!
I finally beat these guys, and thought I should post a synopsis. It might prove helpful.
In brief, the game was set at 1500 points, and my Estalian Dogs consisted of:
* mounted, barded Captain with sword of might and a magic shield
* 13 heavy cavalry who hung out with the Captain
* paymaster with 2 hand weapons, a talisman, and heavy armour
* bloc of 23 pikemen in hev armour to hang out with the paymaster
*2nd level mage, with Lore of Heaven
*the Lost legion (21 men strong), a cannon, 5 light cavalry with sheilds, and ten other guys with xbows.
Opposing me were:
*Tomb Prince in a chariot, with three chariot buddies
* 2 bocs of skeletons with bows
* 3 Ushabti
* bone giant
* 10 Tomb Guard
* at least 2 mages/priests hiding amongst the skeletons
The Dogs got first turn, but instead of all rushing forwards as we have done so many times in the past, only the fast cav shot out. Everyone else stayed where they were, within 12" of our table edge. there was some shooitng that took out one chariot. Then, by the end of the first turn, my fast cavalry were in retreat, and the chariot unit that had meant to charge them was instaed slamming into the Paymaster pike block. In the fight that followed, four pikemen died, the remaining chariots were destroyed, and teh paymaster got creamed by a fail of skulls. However, during the combat resolution, I won by 6, and the Prince, unable to take so many additional wounds poofed into dust.
Panic ensued as the men realised that the Paymaster was dead and none of them were going to get paid. The heavy cavalry unit, capatin and all, ran off the table ([/i]). The fast cav never recovered from their feighned retreat. Even the Lost legion very nearly called it quits. What ws left to do but hunker down, and let the enemy come to us.
And this is where the victory slowly crept in, because the Tomb Kings cannot march. Let me say that again... the Tomb Kings cannot march. this means that with enough missile weapons, especially those of the 30" range kind, they can be whittled down long before they can assault your front line. The bone giant never got into close combat and neither did the Ushabti. All that ws left were the tomb guard and the skeleton blocs... who stood no chance of getting me before the end of Turn 6.
In the end, a marginal victory for the men of Estalia... but perhaps more importantly, a valuable lesson learned in how to exploit one of the TK's few weaknesses.