Shane, I think you are still thinking very much in 7th edition if you think we have 25% lord choices just sitting there.
With all the new magic items, the Mercenary General is a cheap and logical choice for General if you're not taking a Wizard Lord, and has some half-decent magic items to choose from.
I don't think a Captasus is completely necessary. Nice to have around, but you don't need to deck him out in magic gear for him to be useful. As Gwyddon says, a Paymaster plus Captasus honestly only runs you around 170 in gear (All a Captasus really needs is HA, shield and lance). Plenty of room for Wizards.
As for 2 level 2's against a level 3 or even level 4 for that matter.
Wizard lord gets you caster superiority, but it's one model, and if you fail to cast or dispel one spell then you can't use him for the rest of the magic phase. The pro's are of course, you get +3/+4 to cast and dispel, so you are less likely to fail to cast.
2 Level 2's get you magical flexibility. You have access to 2 spell lores, which I think is desirable. If you fail to cast/dispel or one of them dies, your magic phase isn't just going to waste as you've got another caster to use. You also get 2 chances to channel as opposed to one (Not that it's a huge boon, I would rather +1 to cast).
In regards to resilience, I would honestly say 2 level 2's are more resilient to miscasts due to having 4 wounds between them, rather than just 3. Also, lore of life can help you out by healing up any wounds you get by miscasting as well, so you could have 1 of your casters with life (Which is not a bad lore) and the other with a different lore.
This is why I think a level 4 + level 2 is best for magic heavy. You get the best of both worlds, flexibility in 2 lores, plus good +cast/+dispel from your wizard lord.
(07-21-2010 08:07 PM)someone2040 Wrote: [ -> ]Shane, I think you are still thinking very much in 7th edition if you think we have 25% lord choices just sitting there.
But, we actually DO have 25% Lord choices just sitting there. How is that 7th edition?
As for a Captain on Pegasus, although you definately don't need to load him up with magic, I've found that with the combined stats (and the +1 armour for mounting) that he only needs a small amount of additional protection, but that the Mask of EEE! (the terror causing one, I think that is the correct name) is greatly helpful on him.
And yeah, the Level 4+ Level 2 is definately the way to go for a powerful magic phase, unless you are going to bring either a special character caster (Teclis, ect) or are loaded up on bound items, which, for armies with cheap characters, is often not that hard to do.
The one other thing that I actually REALLY like about 8th editions magic, and that gets kind of overlooked, is the increased control you have over spell selection, especially with higher level casters. Of course, having a level 4 means you are going to know most of the spells of your lore, but it is no guarantee of getting the EXACT one you want, but with the ability to replace any double rolled with a spell of your choice, you have just that little extra bit of control.
Magic heavy with only a level 2 and a level 4? thats magic medium in my book.
Magic heavy: in 2200 which I played last night.
L4 Life,
L4 Metal
L2 Death
Played vs Empire worked fairly well. Still getting the bugs out but this is the way that I am leaning.
You didn't find that running more than one level 4 caused you to run short of dice? I was wondering if this was going to be a real problem. Also, would you say that you cast about the same number of spells as you would with only one level 4, but have a wider variety?
Defenitely more variety and choice as to spells. I did not find that I was running out of dice any more then I was in 7th ed.
The thing that I found is that I do not have to cast every spell every turn. The RIP spells get cast first and then you dont have to worry about them. Life has several. Cast them early and do not need to again. The death mage can also generate dice as he casts. Thats what he is for for me. I also had the +1 to channel item on 1 mage.
I have to run more games in order to get a better feel for it.
The other thing I found is that I am not using more than 4 dice per casting. The level 4 adding his level to the casting is equal to at least 1 die. I was in the high teens regularly without miscasting.
I think 2 level 4's are overkill.
If you want to go magic heavy, and heavier than a level 4 and level 2, add in another level 2.
The reason I feel 2 level 4's are overkill is, what happens if you roll like a 2-7 for your power dice generation? Channelling is fairly random. For that phase (and possibly others), you are basically going to be casting 2 spells.
So I feel, given the randomness of the magic pool, you can be making a large investment in something that may not give returns. A level 4 and level 2 isn't quite as large an investment, and is still fairly magic heavy.
@Shane
I meant, in 7th edition, the only viable lord option was the Wizard Lord. In 8th, the Mercenary General and special characters if you are able to use them, are also viable options for spending your lord points on.
So it's not as if the Wizard Lord is the one and only choice any more.
I'd imagine that pretty much in every game of average points (2,000 - 3,000 where I play) there'd be little reason not to take a Hireling Wizard Lord. The new magic is so devastating that just one good spell can ruin your whole game. Before, you could load up on a Wizard Lord, and two Hireling Wizards, and get nothing but one or two measly 1d6 Fireballs or Deathbolts off against even the most base magical defenses. Now, one Purple Sun (easily made by rolling a few dice with a level 4, especially with a Power Stone, or whatever the 8th Ed. equivalent is now) can wipe out half a Dwarf, Ogre, or Nurgle army in one scatter.
Filling up your 500 or so points with Mercenary Generals hardly seems like it would have the same effect. Though, since I don't think we're limited by how many Lords we can take, and only on points, there's also little reason not to take a plain Mercenary General once we have the 90 points to spare for leadership.
The new Lores of magic are also vastly in our favour now I think. They're throwing out so many special rules as augments, it's uncanny. We can give our pikes Armor Piercing or, God forbid, our crossbows which will now fire in two ranks with the Lore of Metal. For an army notorious for their low (Human) leadership, there's a Remains in Play spell that'll grant all units in a wide area Immune to Panic, or automatically passing panic tests, I forget which. There's a spell that increases all units within range a +d3 to Toughness, which means we might get ranked pikes, paymaster's bodyguards, or even Halflings which can take a charge and survive. Or better yet, make our Dwarfs nigh insurmountable.
One of the main complaints (or selling points to some) is that our units, excluding the Regiments of Renown, are bog standard and are lacking of tricks up their sleeves like other armies' units have. There's a plethora of ways to help our units out with magic now other than blasting away their enemies.
While I overall dislike the changes to the magic system in 8th Ed., I cannot deny that we're getting a great boost by it.
(07-23-2010 10:59 PM)Rhydoc Wrote: [ -> ]One of the main complaints (or selling points to some) is that our units, excluding the Regiments of Renown, are bog standard and are lacking of tricks up their sleeves like other armies' units have. There's a plethora of ways to help our units out with magic now other than blasting away their enemies.
Actually in one sense we can take advantage of some spells
better than other armies - specifically the ones that boost all characters within X" as our regiments of renown have 1+ characters each e.g. imagine casting the Savage Beast of Horros to give +3S and +3A to both Golgfag and Skaff (a plus side to our named and killable early standard bearer characters!) and/or Al Muktar, Sheikh Shufti and Ibn all boosted - Ibn having 3 x S6 and killing things for a change has to be a laugh
(and as an added bonus they can have rank bonus now as 8th got rid of the limit of fast cavalry not having rank bonus). This and other buffs may make some of the really not worth it RoR choices possibly worth it in the right circumstances.
I like the way that sounds. I rarely use RoR, but it would be cool to try some of these new gimmicks out. Tossing some buffs on Mengil's unit would be great with their poisoned great weapons. And using Regrowth to restore dead models would make some of the really overpriced guys less of a straight liability.
After having played a half dozen games this past weekend, and running a level 3 with the Ruby Ring of Ruin (fireball, bound spell, power level 3) and the channeling staff (+1 to channel), I am officially in love with magic this edition. I took him against Vampires, Dark Elves, Demons and Wood Elves with a caster lord, and he held his own every time. Several times he probably took 'unit of the game'.
Also, instead of starting another thread, I though perhaps we could expand the purpose of this one to include which Lore(s) we are using, and why we feel they are beneficial to Dogs of War. Seem reasonable?
I'll start with my personal favourite, the Lore of Heavens.
Why I love it:
The spells offer a good mix of augmenting and damage. Particular favourites include re-rolling all 1's to hit and wound for all units within 12" until the start of your next turn. Getting this off when there is 3 units of duelists, 10 x-bows and a hot pot around you is DEVASTATING. Move the duelists up, shoot, and then next turn stand and shoot and fight anyone that makes it, thats three phases of re-rolls they get.
The Lore also offers up some great fixes to our armies weaknesses. Uranon's Thunderbolt is a good anti-cavalry spell, and Chain Lightning can go a long way towards thinning out a horde, or weakening an army with several small, elite units.
I personally play a movement heavy, avoid and crush style list, and I find my greatest enemies to this are units of flyers, such as warhawk riders, great eagles, ect, as they can normally counter my movement and take me apart. As we only have the option of flying characters, not units, this is often difficult to deal with. The lore of heavens attribute ability is perfect for this, with the Roiling Skies rule. I have used this to take out Warhawk squads, Dark Elf Sorcerous, and several other units, with minimal effort. The reason? You do not actually need to get the spell off to get the effect. Seriously, go read it, all you need to do is target the unit. So a Thunderbolt (D6 S6 hits) against another flying unit AUTOMATICALLY gives you D6 S4 hits, even if they dispel it.
I realize that the above seems fairly circumstance specific, but for me, it is invaluable.
What's everyone else' favourite?